HOA Nut House

Management companies contribute to what is, in my humble opinion, the biggest racket in this country.

I could go on and on and on about the stupid things that management companies do. Their purpose in life is to generate fees.

Enough said?

But what to do? I don't know where you live, but my suggestion would be to start with your association statutes. What is the state law about access to books and records, including the financial records? What can legally be charged, and for what purpose? The next place to look after state law, is your own Declaration or Bylaws.

Then write a letter, citing the provisions of law /contract (governing documents) that support your position. Mail it by certified mail return receipt requested to the property manager, and cc an officer of the association.

Now, the caveat. It has been my experience that management companies/Boards never let a little thing like the law stop them in their pursuit of money/control.
I could be blithe, and say you should get a lawyer who either specializes in association law or property/or contract law. And you will end up paying far more in legal fees than it would cost you to pay for access to the records.

The caveat to the caveat. If you acquiesce, you will still have the problem of yet the next revenue generator they concoct. It is my opinion that these cretons must be stopped in their tracks whenever possible. Someone asked me recently if I know of a "good" property management company. I couldn't think of one. And I have the occasion to see the fruits of a number of them.

The one thing I will say without tongue in cheek and in all seriousness is this: When it comes to the books, homeowners MUST find out what is going on in their association. It sounds like you have the experience and background to know what I mean. Now consider that unlike a *real* government, these quasi governmental monstrosities known as associations are usually NOT regulated. And the requirements to obtain a CAM (community association manager) license are generally not very rigorous. In this state, one can get a license with an IQ of your average chipmunk and a couple days of "training" by other like-minded rodents. These CAMs then are entitled to - and do - handle millions of dollars of other people's money. Oh I forgot....the way the licensing agency for CAMs handled the unlicensed practice of property management by the wife of a CAM (and convicted felon)? They granted her a CAM license. Problem solved.

I know how cynical and negative this all sounds. But you need to know what you are up against. The lobby of this "industry" is powerful, and has spent a whole lot of money making sure that HOAs remain unregulated and homeowners powerless. But if you are diligent, willing to research and not willing to be intimidated by the veneer of "authority" that the CAMs and association lawyers present, you can win. Sometimes the best way to handle it is to recall the Board and then scrutinize with great detail any "service provider" you/the new board hires. Depending on how crooked or unethical the board/lawyers are in your association, recall may or may not be successful. In this state, fixing elections and recall ballots are commonplace. In fact, many many asosciations don't even bother with elections, notwithstanding state law.

Above all, do not give up. Pick your battles. Give all this some thought, and plan out your strategy.

What State are you in? Is it a Condo Complex or a Single Family Home community?

ARIZONA:

33-1805. Association financial and other records

A. Except as provided in subsection B of this section, all financial and other records of the association shall be made reasonably available for examination by any member or any person designated by the member in writing as the member's representative. The association shall not charge a member or any person designated by the member in writing for making material available for review. The association shall have ten business days to fulfill a request for examination. On request for purchase of copies of records by any member or any person designated by the member in writing as the member's representative, the association shall have ten business days to provide copies of the requested records. An association may charge a fee for making copies of not more than fifteen cents per page.

B. Books and records kept by or on behalf of the association and the board may be withheld from disclosure to the extent that the portion withheld relates to any of the following:

1. Privileged communication between an attorney for the association and the association.

2. Pending litigation.

3. Meeting minutes or other records of a session of a board meeting that is not required to be open to all members pursuant to section 33-1804.

4. Personal, health or financial records of an individual member of the association, an individual employee of the association or an individual employee of a contractor for the association, including records of the association directly related to the personal, health or financial information about an individual member of the association, an individual employee of the association or an individual employee of a contractor for the association.

5. Records relating to the job performance of, compensation of, health records of or specific complaints against an individual employee of the association or an individual employee of a contractor of the association who works under the direction of the association.

C. The association shall not be required to disclose financial and other records of the association if disclosure would violate any state or federal law.

Can someone tell me the process of firing our property management company and replacing them with a new one?
Currently, our management company has sent out letters to us regarding weeding, hoses not rolled up, slight rot on the bottom of our neighbors front door etc. They've sent out about 47 letters to us homeonwners.
This is getting very irritating. Don't they work for the HOA? We do not like this nit picking observations.
When the management company was called about this, the Property Manager defended that they are doing their job. And they want to make sure they protect their butts. I'm not sure what that means.
Since they are unwilling to work with us, I would like to replace them with a more friendly and reasonable management company.

Thanks for your help.

Ms. Irritated

You need to read the contract and see what the out clause is.Are you a board member?This is usually done by the board as they would be the ones in charge of employees.Also did someone tell them to send out the letters or are they just doing what they are contracted for? Someone is supposed to enforce covenants and in most cases this is done by the property manager.Get the contract and read it or have your Attorney read it and you will have a better understanding of what course of action to take.Be careful of the new company and the contract to be signed the safe way would be a 30 day out.DO NOT sign a long term contract as you will be responsable for the remainder if you terminate them ( breach of contract).Hope this helps.

If you are a board member, I'd like to add a few other suggestions --
1. The board should ALWAYS know what the property manager is sending out. I don't care if sending out dunning letters is in their contract. The Board is responsible for supervising their employees. Unfortunately, this almost never happens.

2. Agree with the above writer. No longer than a 30 day notice of termination.

3. Do not EVER sign a property management contract that requires the Association to indemnify the property mgm company for negligence and other acts - eg any acts that are not criminal or intentional torts. Unfortunately, many contracts do have this provision and boards think they have no choice - if they even thnk about it at all.
You are better off with no management company than one that requires indemnification. The assocation should not be in the business of insuring property management companies. Those companies should carry their own insurance. In fact, this is probably my biggest problem with too many of these companes - it is outrageous. I will also note that there ARE companies who don't have this provision. Any board that signs a contract like this has rocks in their heads.

If you are not on the board, you need to find out what your board is doing. Are they aware of what is going on with the property management co? Or are they oblivious?
You also need to get a copy of the contract - whether you are a board member or not. You should have a copy.

I am not very impresssed with most property management companies I have seen.

Who regulates CAMs in Arizona? A complaint to that regulatory board would be a good start. And as stated above, get a copy of the contract. It has never ceased to amaze me what contracts boards will sign off on with property managers.

The Board should NOT be charged to audit the their own books. That is insane. But again, I suspect it depends on what craziness was in the contract.

Reality is correct here. IN Florida, CAMs ARE regulated. Unfortunately, that regulation is pretty pathetic. It takes very little for CAMs to get licensed, although they deal with millions of dollars of OPM (other people's money) every day. And it is nearly impossible to do anything to a CAM, because the DBPR (Dept of Business and Professional Regulation) does almost nothing to weed out the bad ones.

IN fact, here in Florida, CAI DOES actively oppose any legislation to protect homeowners - they oppose anything which might possibly limit the power of associations. So it is well understandable that Mika might have been mistaken about their position on CAMs.

I don't know what "Anonynmous:" posted this but it is well worth repeating:
"Be careful of the new company and the contract to be signed the safe way would be a 30 day out.DO NOT sign a long term contract as you will be responsable for the remainder if you terminate them ( breach of contract).Hope this helps."

Excellent advice. Also, do not EVER sign a contract with a CAM that includes a requirement that the HOA indemnify the CAM (all the CAM's agents and employees) for negligence. HOAs should not be in the business of underwriting insurance, at homeowners' expense. Let the CAMs get their own damn liability insurance. I will also not that in Florida, the "premier" (read "largest") association law firm ALSO recommends this in the long long treatise one of the partners wrote on association law. Some of that is actually pretty good; tis a pity that too many lawyers in that firm and others don't follow their own advice.

Here in Central Florida there is a CAI member law firm that recommends Management Co.s and "CAMs" to the uninformed, non-elected "board members," who are putty in the hands of these CAI supporting member lawyers. This appears to be a conflict of interest but here in "Fraud Friendly Florida" it is par for the course! We know because we pay the legal bills for these HOA CAI lawyers who have taken over the board in this mandatory HOA PUD. Recently the "board" appointed a man as "president," then decided they didn't want him, so they recalled him. They then had a "meeting" at which - you guessed it - the CAI lawyer handled the "recall." It doesn't get any more stupid than this anywhere in HOA Land.

It is so sad to read these comments about Management Companies that you have all experienced. Has anyone who has written such terrible things ever worked for a Management Company? Have you been in their shoes? Have you ever wonder why some of them are dishonest or on the take? Because in this industry the Management Company is the lowest paying vendor on your payroll. You pay your Landscape Maintenance Company more money than your Management Company that you want to keep current, accurate records, detailed receipts of expenditures, oversee all contractors and projects happening in the community, enforcing the rules and regulations, depositing all your assessment income, ensuring all your bills are paid on time without penalties and of course you want us all to be at our desk 8 hours a day so when you call you have someone to talk to but then you complain about the Manager not walking the property or overseeing vendors. You also expect your Management Company to handle calls 24-7 and handle emergencies whenever they occur. Your Management Company is also the one chosen to work closely with your Attorney to ensure that all delinquent accounts are satisified and when there is an eviction the Property Manager must be onsite with the County Police to escort out the homeowner. After a grueling day of phone calls, interruptions,emergency here a homeowner having a melt down there a legal battle going on and a Board Member who just shows up at your office your all miffed when the Management Report is a day late.

Property Management is a thankless job, that is why there are creeps out there, that is why companies cannot hire the level of service of people that you all demand because you won't pay for it. You think paying less for Management is the best way to cut your budget, and increase the landscape beautification project to increase your property values, so while the landscape company is charging you 50% over cost on material you don't even bat an eye, no they are above board, they would never do anything to cheat you. But the Management Company who is suppose to be on your team you don't trust them as far as you can throw them. It is sad. No one will ever understand this situation until they are a Condominium or HOA Property Manager themselves and have paid their dues. It is a thankless, negative situation job which burnout is beyond any other industry, no one ever calls the Management Company to say nice job, thanks for finding that bank error, thanks for paying our bills on time so we have no penalties, thanks for handling Mrs. Brown she is lonely has no family and no one to talk to. Thanks for listening to our owners complain about Rules and Regulations the Board has put into place, thanks for writing up those violations and keeping our property values up, thanks for spending all the time on that project and linking us with the right people. Thanks for always being here after hours and on week-ends to take our emergency calls and dispatching people to remedy the situation. You just keep bashing the Management Company and complaining about how they are all on the take and after your ideals and trust issues have been recognized by your Property Manager and they can take no more of your insane accusations you wonder why your always getting a new Manager and why do we always have to train them! Wake up people. Start paying your Management Company what they are worth. Everything that comes your way whether it be projects, emergencies, situations that arise that need to be dealt with must all come from one source your Management Company these are the people you should be standing behind and offering your support.

I am tired of reading everyones negative attitudes about their Property Management Company. What about your other vendors, perhaps you have no negative attitudes about them because they can afford to pay you to keep your mouths shut.

Just curious here....was this post written by the Property Management Company? Our attorney (who only represent the BOD) told the Manager to stay off our blog. Then he comes in as anonymous and posts all sorts of fabricated BS. I was just wondering if thats the case here?

Well if Dr. Manager is so unhappy, why doesn't he/she look for another career. Based on my experience (especially in Arizona) there needs to be some sort of regulatory body. After I left the present board hired an inexperience company. He was caught counting the ballots prior to the annual board meeting to make sure his favorite was retained, wouldn't allow any absentee ballots at the annual meeting, although the past 12 years we always allowed them, needless to say its become a mess. An recall election ousted his favorite, but not before he let Augustus Shaw ring up $8,000 in legal bills. One board member retained her position on a tie vote, but again he wouldn't allow votes to be counted if they arrived after the start of the meeting, (a weekday at 6pm in another city altogether). Now that homeowner has filed a compliant regarding the ballot not counting. And instead of dealing with the concern of the homeowner, Preferred Communities needs to run off and hire another attorney. Meanwhile the reserve fund is now down to $1,000 compared to $40,000 two years ago.

If an HOA Board believes itself to have the authority to tow cars off city streets, where would and how would that need to be worded in the By-Laws, Declaration, or CC&Rs?

And, if this new belief has just happened for the first time in 13 years, how might it be justified? Our rules state only the power to take "appropriate and necessary" action. Since when did parking on a city street become a "violation"? This is NOT a private neighborhood. How does the Board acquire the authority to hire a management company which then hired a towing company which came in the dead of night with NO warnings. Help?

READ your CC&Rs and bylaws. If you agree to limit your parking through them, you don't have any recourse in most cases. If those rules are in there, get them removed!

The only property the Association actually 'owns' and can regulate, absent what are in the CC&Rs is the common area designated on the plat map filed with the County Recorder's office. The BOD has absolutely no authority to institute 'rules' or 'regulations' for owners use of their own private property outside any additional use restrictions they might initiated to protect the Association owned property, the common area, the 'community' asset.

This is true, however, the entire concept from a strictly Constitutional standpoint is unlawful as the city/state and developers had no real 'rights' to go into partnership together and restrict land use and sales in this manner to begin with - as 'communism' of land ownership and not the founder's intent in private property ownership to begin with, with a 'corporation' given lien and seizure rights to your property if they requisite 'taxes' are not paid, or if the property is subjectively 'blighted' for something so inconsequential as painting YOUR VERY OWN HOME the wrong paint shade or brand.

'Communism' of land ownership, pure and simple, and no wonder there is so much violence and abandonment of these properties, that and the collusion and fraud that is now fairly apparent which has transpired in the mortgage loan industry has frightened the population in general now with respect to property sales. Who in their right mind, with most of the laws and statutes now they way that they are protecting the 'corporate' Association and special interests, would enter into such a venture other than investors who have no intention whatsoever of ever living in one of them and are only purchasing them for speculation purposes?

Just my opinion, but seems to be becoming more and more the general consensus of any who have ever lived in one of them, especially in those states which are seeing most of the foreclosure and equity striping results of their 'uniformed' and 'changed' contracts these past 10-15 years, without their knowledge or consent.

No doubt 90% of these winers and complainers are Liberals who want. Period! They want! Me! Me ! Me!
If you signed up to live in a deed-restricted community, you had the responsibility to read the covenants, Rules and Regs, before you signed on the dotted line. You should have realized you were giving up certain rights in order to maintain a certain level of enforcable community standards.
If your management company is not performing well, speak to your Board. They are responsible for directing the MC. If they do not perform their jobs well, check your covenants to find out how to remove them. If the majority of your residents are ok with the state of things, maybe YOU are the one out of step!

Lucky Devil, calling people names, what a solution.