Q.C. couple, HOA spar over gay pride flag

Navigation

Q.C. couple, HOA spar over gay pride flag

Submitted by Admin on Fri, 06/05/2009 - 11:17pm. Living The HOA Way

By David Woodfill | Tribune

Steven, left, and Zeniff Vanderran display a Memorial Day flag on their Queen Creek home that created an issue with their HOA.

Steven and Zeniff Vanderran say homophobia and ongoing disputes with their homeowners association are behind an order to remove a gay pride flag from their Queen Creek home.

"I've marched for gay rights since I was in my 20s - I'm 54 now, so for 30 years," Steven Vanderran said. "I know homophobia when I see it."

He is referring to a prohibition by the Cambria Ocotillo Home Owners Association against displaying the flag the couple began flying in 2003.

Cambria Ocotillo's design guidelines only allow certain flags, including decorations for certain holidays, according to Jonathan Olcott, the association's attorney. The association also allows military and U.S. flags.

"The story here is about a fellow pushing the envelope," Olcott wrote in an e-mail. "It is a story about a poor soul who is not content unless he is in a scrape with his HOA."

The Vanderrans, who are gay, argue that their request to fly the gay pride flag was approved in 2003 by a previous management company. They took the flag down in August 2008 after receiving a complaint from the association. They still display several holiday-themed gay pride flags.

A letter to the couple from Olcott said the association's design guidelines permit holiday flags.

"The board interprets the term 'holiday' as the recognized national holidays. Those are New Year's Day, Martin Luther King Day, Easter, Memorial Day, July 4, Veteran's Day, Labor Day, Thanksgiving Day and Christmas Day," the letter said. "A day celebrating Gay Pride is not yet a nationally-recognized holiday."

Steven Vanderran said that argument doesn't jibe, pointing out that Easter isn't a nationally recognized holiday either, even though the board permits Easter decor.

Olcott's letter went on to say they could only display the rainbow (gay pride flag) "as a background for a holiday flag, as long as the holiday insignia is larger than the exposed portion of the rainbow flag."

The couple says it has been the subject of slurs and mockery since the dispute began. In a May 11 posting on a local blog, a writer said the decorations were offensive and "If they want to flaunt their preferences in sex partners like that, they need to move into a gay community."

Olcott said the association's intention is only to prevent clutter and it's not singling the couple out.

The Vanderrans counter the dispute is rooted in previous neighborhood scraps, including a legal scrum in which the couple was challenging the board's legitimacy.

"They haven't come out and said anything anti-gay," said Zeniff Vanderran, who owns the home. "I know that they would deny that they are."

Zeniff Vanderran said the board's hassled them in other ways as well.

"We never have weeds in our yard," he said. "They'll still send us unwarranted letters saying that we have weeds when we don't."

Mark Lunt, a neighbor, said he doesn't consider the couple's gay pride flag clutter.

"Steve works really hard in the yard," Lunt said. "In fact, everybody on this end of the street comes to Steve to ask for his opinion on what to plant and when. So, they keep a very nice yard. They're nice neighbors."

Source

» login or register to post comments | email this story |

"However, Jonathan Olcott,

Submitted by Anonymous248 on Sat, 06/06/2009 - 12:51pm.

"However, Jonathan Olcott, attorney for the HOA, said the only flags that can now be posted are those honoring nationally recognized holidays."

Has this guy ever read the law about flags in associations in Arizona?

Is tomorrow, Sunday or any day next week a holiday? In Arizona, can you fly the American flag tomorrow, Sunday or any day next week?

» login or register to post comments | email this comment |

This is not the first time

Submitted by Norman's mother (not verified) on Sat, 06/06/2009 - 10:32pm.

This is not the first time Jonathan Olcott, Esq. has water boarded homeowners. It seems to me there was a case in Chandler, AZ over what began as $66 in unpaid dues turned into $8000 for the defendants before it was over. You have to ask yourself, what kind of an attorney would want to get involved in something as trivial as a two gay guys and their rainbow flag? I mean, so what? Who cares? But it always seems to be something with these guys.

It kind of reminds me of when U.S. Attorney, John Ashcroft announced that he spent $8000 of taxpayer's money for drapes to cover up the exposed breast of The Spirit of Justice dressed in a toga that stands in the Hall of Justice.

Kinda kinky in an unhealthy, Bates Motel sort of way, next thing you know he'll be running around the HOA stabbing victims to death while wearing his mother's clothes.

» login or register to post comments | email this comment |

“This is not the first

Submitted by Chuck132 on Sun, 06/07/2009 - 7:54am.

“This is not the first time Jonathan Olcott, Esq. has water boarded homeowners.”

Members of Arizona’s “association bar” continue to distinguish themselves.

A search of HOA Nut House finds Augustus H. Shaw IV, an “esteemed” member of CAI’s CCAL (College of Community Association Lawyers), the central “character” in 32 threads with tens of dozens of messages specific to Shaw.

While Olcott seems to have flown below HOA Nut House’s radar, his practice has distinguished him with his clients and the State Bar of Arizona (25 public disciplinary records) as well as the Supreme Court of Arizona.

Olcott’s flag advice, “…the only flags that can now be posted are those honoring nationally recognized holidays. Easter is fine. Kwanza is not. Columbus Day (sic) is not. Martin Luther King Day (sic) is fine. Any national holiday is fine. There’s just too many holidays,” should qualify for his 26th State Bar complaint.

Great and wise wisdom from a member of Arizona’s “association bar” (a defendant in nine civil lawsuit [1995-2006, Public Access to Court Information, Maricopa County, 06/06/09], a State Bar of Arizona Respondent [25 bar complaints] and a Respondent before the Disciplinary Commission of the Supreme Court of Arizona) albeit incomprehensible when juxtaposed against the law in Arizona (A.R.S. § 33-1808 Flag display), “…the only flags that can now be posted…”

» login or register to post comments | email this comment |

Steven and Zeniff! Hooray

Submitted by Sam of Fun Gay Stuff Dot Com (not verified) on Sun, 06/07/2009 - 10:05am.

Steven and Zeniff! Hooray for you both!
HOAs ....run by people who previously may have been totally "Intelligent", "Practical" and "Honest".......once a "Board Member"...that old axiom "Power Corrupts" runs "truer" more often than not.......? It is amazing just what happens! I am a Gay Man who is helping the Home Owners in Our Community to "Have A Say In Their HOA"! Give me a few more weeks to finish my website............and I can show you both "Step-By-Step" just how to do it! And your cost is less than $30 a month...for your entire Community...........no matter if it is 300 or 300,000 Home Owners!
Check out my "work in Progress" .... River Landing Henderson
Hugs......Sam
FUN GAY STUFF Dot Com

» login or register to post comments | email this comment |

This is ridiculous. No one,

Submitted by worried (not verified) on Wed, 07/01/2009 - 10:27am.

This is ridiculous. No one, NO ONE is homophobic in this community, and honestly it's a comment that sparked much controversy..which is exactly what this couple wanted. Too bad they feel like they must bring such negative attention to an area already floundering in home values.

» login or register to post comments | email this comment |

Notwithstanding one’s

Submitted by Chuck132 on Mon, 06/08/2009 - 4:50pm.

Notwithstanding one’s Queen Creek politics, does the Cambria Ocotillo Home Owners Association have a legal right to prohibit Vanderran’s flag display? Does Olcott’s “professional advice” comport with Arizona law, A.R.S. § 33-1808?

"However, Jonathan Olcott, attorney for the HOA, said the only flags that can now be posted are those honoring nationally recognized holidays.” Andy Harvey, 12 News

“Has this guy ever read the law about flags in associations in Arizona?” Anonymous248, 06/06/09

33-1808. Flag display; political signs; caution signs; for sale signs; political petitions

A. Notwithstanding any provision in the community documents, an association shall not prohibit the outdoor display of any of the following:

1. The American flag or an official or replica of a flag of the United States army, navy, air force, marine corps or coast guard by an association member on that member's property if the American flag or military flag is displayed in a manner consistent with the federal flag code (P.L. 94-344; 90 Stat. 810; 4 United States Code sections 4 through 10).
2. The POW/MIA flag.
3. The Arizona state flag.
4. An Arizona Indian nations flag.

B. The association shall adopt reasonable rules and regulations regarding the placement and manner of display of the American flag, the military flag, the POW/MIA flag, the Arizona state flag or an Arizona Indian nations flag. The association rules may regulate the location and size of flagpoles but shall not prohibit the installation of a flagpole.

If you believe the legal advice you receive is unwarranted (incorrect/improper), you are not required by law or governing documents to follow such advice. In fact, you should feel compelled to give rise to your voice in opposition to such advice.

» login or register to post comments | email this comment |

thank you all for you posts

Submitted by vanderran (not verified) on Wed, 06/24/2009 - 11:39pm.

thank you all for you posts of support

» login or register to post comments | email this comment |

I don't support you. I think

Submitted by worried (not verified) on Wed, 07/08/2009 - 10:19am.

I don't support you. I think you are nothing less than a selfish, self serving individual, that could care less about his community. Hope you never need a neighbors support in a difficult time because, you have ostercized yourselves from a better part of the community..particulary your immediate neighborhood.

» login or register to post comments | email this comment |

They need to move into a

Submitted by Worried (not verified) on Wed, 07/01/2009 - 10:21am.

They need to move into a community that is more receptive to their flag. CC&R's are written for a reason. My biggest fear is that they are making themselves a target for some minority hater, and that innocent people may become a part of it. If they really cared about human rights they would remove the flag for the safety of their community.

» login or register to post comments | email this comment |

Worried....you look like you

Submitted by Giddyup (not verified) on Wed, 07/01/2009 - 10:36am.

Worried....you look like you probably live in their neighborhood. What a lamely veiled attempt to make it look as though you really care. Move because of a flag? You're an idiot! Why should this nice couple uproot their entire home because people like you don't like "their kind"? You are the worst kind of neighbor there is! Get a life. Even better, invite the couple over and get to know them instead of insisting they move away.

» login or register to post comments | email this comment |

I don't care if they

Submitted by worried (not verified) on Tue, 07/07/2009 - 6:16pm.

I don't care if they move..where did you get that? Simply stated I DO CARE about the ramifications to the people in the neighborhood. I suppose you're going to say I'm homophobic now too. I'm an idiot? why? because I don't want a tacky flag flying? I could care less what kind of flag it is if it looks tacky it should come down. By the way I really was concerned that they have targeted themselves. Honestly giddyup why all the drama?

» login or register to post comments | email this comment |

"...I don't want a tacky

Submitted by Chuck132 on Tue, 07/07/2009 - 10:38pm.

"...I don't want a tacky flag flying? I could care less what kind of flag it is if it looks tacky it should come down." worried, 07/07/09

Notwithstanding the misplaced judgment of Cambria Ocotillo Home Owners Association’s lawyer, "However, Jonathan Olcott, attorney for the HOA, said the only flags that can now be posted are those honoring nationally recognized holidays” and worried’s opinion re that which he/she deems tatty, ratty, frazzled or grubby, an opinion that might include any of Arizona’s 21 federally recognized Indian tribes' flags, Arizona law prohibits an association denying its members the outdoor display of 30 or more flags (see "Notwithstanding one's...," Chuck132, 06/08/09).

Pima Maricopa Indian Tribal Flag of Salt River, Arizona; Apache Tribe of San Carlos, Arizona Flag; Mohave Chemihuevi Hopi Navaho Flag (see Native American Flags, http://www.snowwowl.com/nainfoflagsintro.html)

Notwithstanding one’s
Submitted by Chuck132 on Mon, 06/08/2009 - 3:50pm.

"However, Jonathan Olcott, attorney for the HOA, said the only flags that can now be posted are those honoring nationally recognized holidays.” Andy Harvey, 12 News

“Has this guy ever read the law about flags in associations in Arizona?” Anonymous248, 06/06/09

33-1808. Flag display; political signs; caution signs; for sale signs; political petitions

A. Notwithstanding any provision in the community documents, an association shall not prohibit the outdoor display of any of the following:

» login or register to post comments | email this comment |

Nice try, I still believe

Submitted by worried (not verified) on Wed, 07/08/2009 - 10:14am.

Nice try, I still believe that ANYTHING that is nothing more than a distraction to the neighborhood should go bye, bye. You folks on here that continue to proclaim how these willing participants of all this are victimized are nothing less than..hilarious. You want sympathtic supporters? When these individuals start to have some regard for their neighborhood, that just may happen. By the way yes, if a flag is worn or tattered..(by flag I mean American or POW) it should be removed because it takes away from the glory and honor it represents, and is disrespectful to the flag. When one chooses to masquerade the Amercan flag with Gay pride emblems...well, that's just over the top for most of us patriotic folks. you folks sound more like you're on a witch hunt than trying to stand up for what you percieve to be your rights.

» login or register to post comments | email this comment |

worried wrote:Nice try, I

Submitted by Angry on Thu, 07/09/2009 - 6:41pm.

worried wrote:

Nice try, I still believe that ANYTHING that is nothing more than a distraction to the neighborhood should go bye, bye.

So I suppose you believe that every house should look exactly the same. No one should park in the street, even if they are a visitor. Children should not be seen OR heard...keep them inside. When you pull up to your house, you open the garage door with your little opener, pop inside, and have never met any of your neighbors. In fact, you would probably prefer that everyone do the same when they get home. Am I correct?

» login or register to post comments | email this comment |

Good for "worried" and good

Submitted by Anonymous2222 (not verified) on Wed, 07/08/2009 - 11:37am.

Good for "worried" and good for the HOA standing its ground; they get it right. These two individuals are all about an 'in your face' attitude about their sexual behavior that most people prefer to still have the decency to keep it behind closed doors (whatever their choice; natural or unnatural as the case may be). They're obviously heterophobic otherwise they wouldn't ascribe to their behavioral choice to the point of putting a flag saying as much.

Associations are having a difficult time as it is to cover the necessary finances or have individuals buy or sell their homes without somebody parading their sexual choice for all to see. Selfish comes to mind when thinking about the two flag bearers.

Proud to be an American!

» login or register to post comments | email this comment |

worried, in the immortal

Submitted by Anonymous248 on Wed, 07/08/2009 - 11:42am.

worried, in the immortal words of Chuck 132, "Take a pill bitch."

Whatever one's passionate misguided beliefs may be, "...I still believe that ANYTHING that is nothing more than a distraction...I think...by flag I mean American or POW," those unfounded beliefs are of little importance or worth when juxtaposed with the law (flag display, display of a political sign, use of a cautionary sign, indoor or outdoor display of a for sale sign or the circulation of political petitions) in Arizona.

The significant questions previously raised on this tread remain unanswered, "...does the Cambria Ocotillo Homeowners Association have a legal right to prohibit Vanderran’s flag display? Does Olcott's "professional advice" comport with Arizona law, A.R.S. § 33-1808? Has this guy (Olcott) ever read the law about flags in associations in Arizona?”

» login or register to post comments | email this comment |

Q.C. couple, HOA spar over gay pride flag

Comment viewing options